The Two Kens is a venture for the two podcasters: Ken Kemp and Ken Fong. Periodically, the two will record their take on current events and their shared journey as former pastors, armchair politicos, theologians and writers. These conversations are aired on both podcasts. More about Ken Fong.
Ever heard the word patrimonialism? Neither had we—until we read Jonathan Rauch’s eye-opening article in The Atlantic: "One Word Describes Trump." In this episode of The Two Kens, Ken Fong and I dive into what this term really means and why it’s the key to understanding the new administration. Patrimonialism, a concept from sociologist Max Weber, describes rulers who claim to be the symbolic “father” of the people—personifying and controlling the state. Sound familiar? We break down the administration’s first 60 days including mass firings, legal overreach, and dismantling of key government services; renaming the Gulf of Mexico and Mount Denali (yes, really); trade wars, territorial ambitions including Canada, Greenland, the Panama Canal, and the chaos strategy at play. We also talk about my letters to Senate Majority Leader John Thune—picked up by Politico and The New Yorker—urging him to take a stand. Plus, we tackle the Democratic Party’s challenge in fighting back against this Republican power grab. Join us for this timely and critical conversation.
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Kemp and Fong agree. We need each other now more than ever. Steve Bannon predicted the strategy of this new administration. He declared, “We’re gunna flood the zone with sh*t.” He was prophetic. The Zone has experienced a flash flood. The two Kens thought the new President’s intent would be to drain the swamp - but the flash flood of Executive Orders, the defunding, the closures, the pardons have all had the intended effect. None of us, not the politicians, not the media, not the pundits - none of us can keep up. The two podcasters review several articles that have been illuminating. One tells the story of Hungary: Viktor Orbán’s takeover of their vibrant democracy, turning it into an authoritarian state. The Atlantic published a thorough review of the history of Hitler’s first 53 days - in which he dismantled Germany’s democracy by using the Constitution to accomplish that goal. And then, V.P. J.D. Vance emerges as an amateur theologian, justifying the neglect of the marginalized by coming up with a “God-ordained hierarchy” that in essence, gets us off the hook for caring for our neighbors. It’s a collaboration of the Two Kens to stay on the alert, speak the truth, and maintain our vigilance. SHOW NOTES
SOURCES:
VOX - Their democracy died.They have lessons for America about Trump's power grab. Hungarians who lived through Viktor Orbán’s 2010 power grab warn Americans: Act now, before it’s too late by Zach Beachamp February 5, 2025
ATLANTIC - HOW HITLER DISMANTLED A DEMOCRACY IN 53 DAYS He used the Constitution to shatter the Constitution. By Timothy W. Ryback, JANUARY 08, 2025
JD Vance accidentally directed us to a crucial moral question: Just ignore the godawful reading of Christianity he used to get there. VOX by Sigal Samuel, February 6, 2025
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NUMBER 401
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Continuing the conversation around the first-ever criminal conviction of the former President, Ken reaches out to Ken Fong. The two podcasters further explore the implications of this watershed, historical moment. Fong opens the podcast by quoting Fox sports writer Colin Cowherd on the trial’s outcome. The MAGA Republican spin masters (including Mike Johnson, John Cornyn, Steve Scalese, Elyse Stefanik and many others) are working overtime to convince the American people that the verdict is meaningless. Without evidence or shame or pause, they assert that this is a politically motivated attempt to disrupt the presidential election initiated by the Biden administration, a “weaponization” of the justice system, and a frontal, personal attack on the presumed nominee of the Republican party. When the verdict came down, the two Kens exchanged texts - and that prompted Kemp to write his seventh letter to Senator John Thune, who joined in the chorus of Republican politicians to add to the spin. The two Kens affirm together that the time has come to tell the truth about the fitness of the Republican nominee. Fong draws on several articles that make a powerful, accurate, and compelling case. SHOW NOTES
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NOTE: According to a 2014 National Science Foundation survey, 26% of Americans believe the sun revolves around the Earth. The survey also found that only 74% of participants knew that the Earth orbits the sun, and only 48% knew that humans evolved from earlier species of animals.
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Laura Bullard on Vox, suggests that the UMC tells us something about America. Recently, the denomination voted, by policy, to be fully inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community, eliminating any and all restrictions regarding membership, leadership in the church and ordination for clergy roles. The vote tallied in at 479 to 203 in favor of the historic change. Bullard posits that in America, most of the population would agree - and yet, in conservative Christian churches and denominations, there remains clear and stubborn opposition - often rooted in a reference to “Biblical Authority.” The two Kens - Ken Fong and Ken Kemp, reflect on their own journey - a change of mind and heart. They celebrate with the majority of the UMC - but recognize the new “Mason Dixon Line” that, like slavery and the Civil War, has triggered an exodus from liberal “mainline” churches. They have flocked to conservative “evangelical” churches that stake their claim on their myopic understanding of their 2,000-year-old sacred text that has created a crushing polarization - at a monstrous cost. This “controversy” has taken an enormous toll in broken lives, broken families, and split churches - not to mention the heavy cost of legal battles, raging denominational splits, massive wasted expenditures and endless arguments over real estate. Ken and Ken share their lament; but also their hope - that folks will take time to think again. The rewards are many. SHOW NOTES
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Ken Fong and Betsey Newenhuyse join Ken Kemp for a special edition - The Two Kens and Beach Talk. Betsey made her third annual trip to California and the studios of the Beached White Male podcast. The three friends join together to interact over their weekend and a conversation is triggered by an unlikely Atlantic article (April 3, 2024, Issue) they all read - The True Cost of The Church Going Bust by self-described agnostic, Derek Thompson. In it, Thompson writes, “More than one-quarter of Americans now identify as atheists, agnostics, or religiously ‘unaffiliated,’ according to a new survey of 5,600 U.S. adults by the Public Religion Research Institute. This is the highest level of non-religiosity in the poll’s history.” The two Kens and Betsey discuss their church experience, especially the Sunday they spent together at the First Baptist Church of Pasadena (Ken Fong’s home church). Thompson argues, as a non-believer, that something profound is lost should communities of faith disappear in America. This episode has been released on both this podcast and Asian America The Ken Fong Podcast.
Atlantic Article | Become a Patron | Ken’s Substack - The Bible Salesman
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The Alabama Supreme Court has lit the fuse exploding into yet another level of controversy in our divided nation. It's not just the question of when life begins, but whether the religious convictions espoused by a few will be imposed as the law of the land on everyone else. The two Kens talk about how this development underscores the threat of Christian nationalism on our democratic way of life. It's an attempt to "colonize America." Fong shares his experience, both personal and pastoral, with in vitro fertilization (IVF). Kemp shares his viewing of the Rob Reiner documentary God and Country. It's another lively exchange between the two podcasters - both former pastors. They give a shout-out to fellow podcaster Brad Onishi for his appearance on NPR's Fresh Air with Terry Gross. SHOW NOTES
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The southern border crisis, Gaza, and untenable beliefs prompt Kemp and Fong to cut loose in a lively discussion. The podcast allows these two retired former pastors to share their genuine convictions without fearing losing their employment. Kemp shares his experience at the opening in the "Big Beautiful Wall," near the small town of Jacumba featured in this week's edition of 60 Minutes. Current headlines reveal that the do-nothing Congress has failed again to act. Funding is desperately needed to bring relief to border agents, manage processing, and stem the tide of out-of-control crossings. Fong takes the conversation to Israel and the unfavorable response to Biden's support for the Netanyahu government's "overkill" in the Gaza war. The two Kens review some theological assumptions rooted in long-held beliefs that are indefensible today. Fong has been asked to address his views on heaven and hell with a group of retired ministers and missionaries - it opens up a free-wheeling review of the two Kens' theological journey on the subject. SHOW NOTES
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The two Kens celebrate the news that Ken F has rediscovered his high school sweetheart. On a recent episode of Asian America the Ken Fong Podcast, Fong shared his budding affection for Doreen with his audience. Kemp shares in the celebration and happiness as Ken and Doreen begin their sweet courtship. As we approach the holiday season, Fong asks Kemp to read his most recent Substack essay, The Baby and the Bathwater. They reflect on the version of Christmas they experienced in their formative years. It centered on an apologetic that made their faith primary - with an assumption of superiority. Kemp shares an interview (Jamin Coller) on his podcast where he learned about a Pastor-Dad who rejected his adult son (and his family) because he expressed his doubts as he entered into a phase of "deconstruction." All too often, a literalist, toxic, fundamentalist religion tragically alienates family members. Kemp shares what he has learned from Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung about religious symbol, myth and archetype. While the arrival of a child for some can be burdensome on many levels, for the Two Kens, the arrival of children and grandchildren evokes the same wonder, promise, and joy we witness in the Christmas scene we call The Nativity. SHOW NOTES
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In my Christian tradition, we were taught that we are all created in the imago Dei, the image of God. According to our scriptures, that idea entered human consciousness from the very beginning, when God played the role of Creator. He (our English translation of the Bible uses the male pronoun) created ex nihilo, out of nothing. If we are made in that image, then we were made to create, too.
Ken Kemp and Ken Fong have journeyed through the unwelcome loss of Sharon (Snoopy) Fong, culminating in a beautiful memorial service this month. As Kemp contemplated the Two Kens conversations leading up to the memorial, he thought about the creative energy that sustained his friend Ken Fong. It was a white-knuckle roller coaster ride up and down, high and low - from using every means at their disposal to kill the cancer and preserve Snoopy's life; to bargaining, to grieving, to hoping, to despairing, and finally to letting go. Kemp shares his deep gratitude for what he learned along with the Fongs this summer. Kemp shares that Ken Fong's creativity has carried him through as he passed the "valley of the shadow" along with his beloved life-long partner, Snoopy.
Creativity has high therapeutic value in getting us through grief, hardship and loss. In this episode of the Two Kens, Kemp and Fong recount the planning and execution of a truly remarkable memorial service bringing to light an extraordinary life well lived through music, story, photographs, and homily. If you were able to attend the service in person or online, you will want to hear this back story of thoughtful preparation from the church where Fong had been lead pastor for some four decades and on to the waters of the Pacific Ocean between the two Hawaiian islands where Snoopy's "cremains" were joined as one to the wind and sea.
Ken Fong's Facebook Page | Sharon's Life Story | Ken's Hawaiian Farewell
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After a courageous, tireless battle, Sharon "Snoopy" Fong left us on July 1, 2023. This Two Kens episode is the twenty-seventh time Ken Fong and Ken Kemp have come together for a podcast conversation - this time, it's a somber, solemn occasion. It's a moment of reflection - filled with both grief and gratitude. Today's title comes from C.S. Lewis, the British literary critic, and scholar who was also known as an Anglican theologian. His writings have influenced many generations of faith seekers, including ours. Professor Lewis was known as a committed bachelor, but he married later in life. When Joy Grisham began corresponding with the stuffy Oxford don, he was smitten - "surprised by joy (Joy)" as he put it. As their romance blossomed, Joy Grisham was unexpectedly diagnosed with a cancer that took her life, all too soon. Lewis' shared his written reflections. His honesty and candor stunned many of his Christian readers because he openly expressed tidal waves of doubt, even anger that his "good" God could possibly have allowed this tragic, premature end to his beautiful awakening to married love. He wrote "A Grief Observed," which it was.
Ken Fong lines up with C.S. Lewis in his willingness to share the journey openly - a journey filled with laughter and tears. The two Kens come together for a personal reflection on life and love - and the extraordinary woman who came into Ken Fong's life more than forty years ago: Sharon Snoopy Fong. Have a hanky handy.
CaringBridge: https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/sharonsnoopyfong
Memorial Service: Saturday, August 12, 2023, at 10 AM at Evergreen Baptist Church of Los Angeles - 1255 Rosemead Boulevard, Rosemead, California
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This episode takes the two podcasters named Ken into very personal territory. The whole world's attention was captured for several days by the plight of five adventurers who plunged into the depths of the North Atlantic in the Ocean Gate Titan to catch a glimpse of the hundred-year-old ruins of the ocean liner Titanic resting on the ocean floor. With sudden silence, just an hour into the descent, communication came to a mysterious and abrupt end. Untethered, the unknown fate of the passengers and crew of the submersible became "BREAKING NEWS," a drama that rallied an armada of rescue ships and planes and high-tech underwater sonars, cameras, and robots. If the Titan had remained intact, reserve oxygen supplies would have run out about the time that rescuers found hard evidence: under the crushing weight of water pressure at extreme depths, the Titan imploded, leaving no survivors. In another scene in the Mediterranean, just off the coast of Greece, a terribly over-loaded ferry boat capsized, resulting in the loss of hundreds of lives - immigrants escaping war and violence and loss coming from as far away as Pakistan with hopes of a better life in Europe. The second event received much less coverage in the global press than the five wealthy passengers of the Titan. The Two Kens ponder the significance of risk and loss, national priorities, life and death. These events unfold in the media in the real and present context of Ken Fong's current personal crisis. Snoopy, his life partner of over forty years is in the battle for her own life against an aggressive cancer. It's a heartfelt conversation between the two Kens. You are invited to join in.
Ken Fong's Caring Bridge page tracking Snoopy's Journey
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Ken Fong stumbled across an opinion piece in the L.A. TIMES by Osamudia James, Professor of Law at the University of North Carolina. Entitled - Florida’s censorship of ‘diversity’ efforts are a tantrum born of white guilt - Kemp agreed the article is worthy of full discussion. The author's phrase, "white innocence," underscores the claim made by Robyn DiAngelo in her now classic book, White Fragility. White folks instinctively resist real conversations about race, often with vigor. Ken Fong wanted to know if The Beached White Male agreed: Is white folks' common claim to "innocence" a factor in the Anti-Woke, Anti-CRT campaign that this article calls a childish "tantrum"? In response, Kemp shares his journey - from conservative white Boomer to host of his progressive podcast. He identifies as "white," but deplores "whiteness." The two Kens explore their personal stories that confirm the good professor's thesis. They call out the Florida governor's highly politicized crusade against D.E.I. (diversity, equity, and inclusion) for what Kemp calls "whiteness at work." SHOW NOTES
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Podcasters Ken Fong and Ken Kemp come together again as The Two Kens to unpack the drama of an historical moment in American political history - a former President of the United States was indicted by a Grand Jury and arraigned on thirty-four felony counts. While the nation debates the merits of the case brought by District Attorney Alvin Bragg before Judge Juan Merchan, the Two Ken's reflect on the import of bringing Donald J. Trump into the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse accused of falsifying official records relative to the payment of $130,000 to Stormy Daniels in exchange for her silence. In his introduction to the podcast, Kemp takes time to comment on another major event: the expulsion of two young lawmakers from the Tennessee House of Representatives, Justin Jones and Justin Pearson.
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Ken Fong and Ken Kemp join together for the first in the Two Kens series for 2023. Ken Fong recently returned from a wild photo journey, tracking down the Snowy White Owl way north in the Canadian Province of Quebec. The mass shooting in Monterey Park, California, on the evening of the Lunar New Year celebration happened in Ken's former neighborhood where he served as a pastor for over three decades. He shares detail from what he has heard from friends and interviews with specialists in Asian perspectives, especially the dynamics of assimilation into American culture - both positive and negative. Ken shares the history of Monterey Park. In the 1970s, Chinese real estate developer Fred Hsieh called it the Chinese Beverly Hills - an "ethnoburb." They also reflect on the Tyre Nichols episode, reviewing the Memorial Service that attracted global attention. Finally, Ken Fong shares his experience leading a recovery group for twenty years and discovering his addiction to hubris.
Asian America The Ken Fong Podcast | The Snowy White Owl - Ken's Facebook Photography Page
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As 2022 comes to a close, Ken Fong and Ken Kemp review a powerful new podcast series produced by their mutual friend, Dr. Brad Onishi (Straight White American Jesus) called Charismatic Revival Fury. Written by Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies (ICJS), Dr. Matthew D. Taylor, the series reveals a little-known or understood movement that became a major influence in promoting the "Big Lie" (that the 2020 Presidential Election was stolen) called The New Apostolic Reformation. Founded by C. Peter Wagner and Pastor John Wimber in the 1980s and 90s at Ken Fong's alma mater, Fuller Theological Seminary, the movement emerged as prophetic support for the 45th President. It crowns Donald Trump as the biblical King Cyrus, with prophecies of his return to power for a second term, in spite of the legitimate victory of Joe Biden. While the January 6 Committee, the media, and social commentators have poured over evidence that led to the January 6 Insurrection, few have called out the inescapable religious element. It was pervasive in leading up to the event and then right there in plain view: The Jericho Marches prior the assault on the Capitol; Seven Mountain Dominionism; players like Paula White and Lance Wallnau worship leader Shaun Feucht; politicians like Sarah Palin, Mike Pence, Mike Pompeo, Michelle Bachman; Michael Flynn, Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, and Doug Mastriano; all heavily influenced by a massive under-the-radar movement that perverts Christianity into a raw pursuit of political power. And it demonizes anyone who dares challenge the assumptions of "Apostolic Authority." Ken Fong shares some very personal related moments that shaped his life and ministry then - and to this day.
Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation
On The Media - The Divided Dial
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Ken Fong and Ken Kemp reconvene for a morning after review of the mid-term elections. The predicted "Red Wave," touted by the former President and his political imitators, failed to materialize - more like a ripple. On his podcast, Asian America the Ken Fong Podcast, Fong interviewed Christopher Huang, a professional photographer, and Hollywood blogger. Huang has written about race in Hollywood cinema in his commentary on Disney's soon-to-be-released remake of "The Little Mermaid," featuring a young woman of color as Ariel. The dominance of whiteness in the movie industry mirrors the "whiteness" at work in the Republican party, championed by the newly elected Governor of Florida, now with Presidential ambitions. Rather than a gracious acceptance speech, Ron DeSantis poured fuel on the culture wars, declaring his primary target: "Wokism" which, he claims, is "destroying America." The two Kens discuss how the fierce battle for control of both the House and the Senate have shown surprising strength from Democratic candidates (like Raphael Wornack, and John Fetterman) and the diminishment of Donald Trump and those Trumpian candidates (like Mehmet Oz and Herschel Walker). They are keeping their eyes on Nevada, Arizona, and Georgia. SHOW NOTES
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After a short break, the TWO KENS are back. Ken welcomes Ken Fong to talk about a sermon he preached recently at the historic First Baptist Church in Pasadena. His subject is The Parable of the Good Samaritan. After listening, Kemp was deeply moved by Fong's creative take on the familiar story. It corresponded powerfully with Kemp's experience on the Civil Rights Tour of the South in June and on the production of the seven-part summer podcast series he calls TRUTH QUEST. Fong understands Jesus to focus not just on the Samaritan's sensitivity and generosity to a victim who traditionally held him in contempt, but the lessons about privilege and vulnerability and the healing and wholeness that comes from the margins. Ken Fong pays tribute to the Truth Quest series as Ken Kemp embraces the pulpit work of his retired pastor friend. SHOW NOTES (complete list of TWO KENS podcasts)
Listen to the series: TRUTH QUEST: Exploring The History of Race in America
Asian America: The Ken Fong Podcast || THE TWO KENS
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with Ken Kemp – Posted: Tuesday, December 28, 2020
RECORDED Wednesday, December 29, 2020
Recorded December 28, 2020, there's a special surprise as the Two Ken's (Ken Kemp and Ken Fong) collaborate on the final podcast of the year. The two podcasters reflect on the depth and meaning some of their favorite interviews in 2020, with special focus on Life Coach Nancy Seng and then the recent Disney+ release: the movie SOUL. They review two of their unique emphases over year - racial reconciliation and LBGTQ rights - and the ways in which their evangelical church has been both complicit and pernicious. Ken Kemp ends this podcast with a benediction For Those Who Have Far to Travel. For details and links, SEE SHOW NOTES.
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with Ken Kemp – Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2020
RECORDED Friday, November 27, 2020
Ken welcomes fellow podcaster Ken Fong, host of the Asian America Podcast. They launch what will become a periodic series called The Two Kens as they reflect on current events, and a common journey. In this episode, they talk about Ken Fong's artistic skill as a professional photographer; then on to the Presidential transition and the final havoc the current POTUS wreaks on protocol, convention, and his efforts to subvert a smooth transfer of power. We review an article that explores the lamentable way in which one half of America resolutely supports his contrived grievances. Kemp introduces a soon to be released little book, with foreword by Ken Fong, in which he talks about Kemp's former profession.
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with Ken Kemp – Posted: June 23, 2020
RECORDED May 12, 2020
Episode 1 - The two Ken’s dive right into Ken Fong's principled change of heart as an Evangelical Pastor - specifically, with respect to the Asian American LGBTQ Community; how it came about, and the consequences of that change - from criticism to new open doors. The Beached White Male shares some thoughts on I-Thou and Us vs. Them. SEE SHOW NOTES: https://thebeachedwhitemale.com/ken_fong
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Part II - Dr. Fong speaks to American exceptionalism and the “racializing" of the Covid-19 pandemic and its social effect on Asian Americans. Ken outlines some of the fascinating history that many of us have missed. The Beached White Male shares a disturbing episode of Us vs Them right in his own home town. SEE SHOW NOTES: https://thebeachedwhitemale.com/ken_fong
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host and co-producer of “Asian America: The Ken Fong Podcast” which has attracted listeners throughout the U.S. and in over 100 countries.
The Ken Fong Podcast
More Pending
